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hardy Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL> Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
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From: Adam Fikso <adam14113 at AMERITECH.NET>
Subject: Re: US permit
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Thanks. Jim.
See below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields at INDY.NET>
To: <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: US permit
> Hi Adam and all,
>
> Under the general permit, seeds are still allowed, but they absolutely ==
MUST
> have a phyto to come in under the general plant import permit. Even =
though the law as wirtten in 1995 has seeds written in as an exception =
to the phyto rule? ? .
The rule
> was apparently always on the books, but was not enforced until some =
time
> after 9/11. There is an officially recognized permit classification =
now,
> since about 4 years ago, for small batches of seeds only, the "Small =
Lots
> of Seeds" permit.
>
> If you want to have seeds sent to you without a phyto, they MUST be =
sent
> under the "Small Lots of Seeds" permit. The requirement for a phyto =
for
> importing seeds went into effect about 5 or 6 years ago (Can you give =
me chapter and verse? on this.) A consortium of
> plant societies, led by Joyce Fingerut, negotiated the creation of the ==
> "Small Lots of Seeds" permit to avoid the requirement for a phyto. ==
I knew this. >
> There is no doubt whatever about the rules as I've been stating them. ==
The
> seeds sent under the old general plant import permit are going to be =
either
> returned to the sender or destroyed, unless they are accompanied by a=
> phyto. There are specific directions in the USDA/APHIS web site for=
> applying to the "Small Lots of Seeds" permit.
>
I have no question that this is how they are now operating. My beef is ==
with how and when the law was changed, and under what authority? I =
suspect that I am not going to get an answer. (Mr. Aley kept dodging it ==
or just didn't know and replied tangentially.)
Am I still going to have to deal with constructing a 10 digit case- =
sensitive password (maybe it was 12) with at least 1 capital letter, 1 =
number, and 1 character from the top line of the qwerty keyboard?
Do they require this for the small lots of seed permit? . I am =
balking at applying again out of sheer cussedness at the past =
administraiton, but also because I have a hearing problem even with a =
hearing aid, and a special phone, and some voices just don't come =
through very well for me, aside from not slowing down or enunciating =
when asked.
. >>Hello Jim.
>>
>>
>> It may be that they've changed the law or written new rules =
governing
>> the application of the law (and it seems that they have) , but Small =
Lots
>> of seeds, or seeds didn't historically require a permit other than =
the
>> general one. The applicable law as written already governed that=2=0
>> eventuality and was subsumed under 319.37-3. et seq. as of 1995, as =
an
>> exception,. But thanks for the info.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields at INDY.NET>
>>To: <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:33 PM
>>Subject: Re: US permit
>>
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I think you will find that the regular plant import permit, which =
covers
>>>plants, bulbs, and seeds, ALWAYS requires a phytosanitary =
certificate.
>>>
>>>The Small Lots of Seeds (SLS) permit covers ONLY seeds, never plants =
or
>>>bulbs, and does NOT requite a phyto.
>>>
>>>These are two separate and distinct entities. You need to apply
>>>separately for each.
>>>
>>>Jim Shields
>>>
>>>
>>>At 12:07 PM 3/17/2009 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>=EF=BB=BF
>>>>Neil? Did you ever talk to Carolyn Fitzgerald herself? I seem to =
be
>>>>facing the same situation that you had. They've apparently changed =
the
>>>>requirements for importation and cannot seem to understand that the=
>>>>import permit governing plants and plant parts covers seed also.. =
The
>>>>APHIS office's right hand doesn't know whatr the left hand does. And ==
>>>>many people there seem to think in either/or terms rather than
>>>>both/and, or can't manage the idea that the basic permit covers seed ==
>>>>even though it says so and specifies.
>>>>
>>>>I'm almost ready to give up, even though I've had a permit since =
1958.
>>>>But I hate to be flummoxed by something like this and give
>>>>up. .. However, incompetence and bureaucratized ignorance is =
nearly
>>>>impossible to overcome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: <mailto:njorgen at COMCAST.NET>Neil jorgensen
>>>>To: <mailto:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 1:58 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: US permit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I hope you all have better luck with the USDA than I did.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Three years ago, I drove 40 miles each way to the nearest USDA =
office to
>>>>apply for importation permit. Told the person I talked to that I =
just
>>>>wanted to import a few seeds to for my own use
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sent in the application and received, I think, two pages of the =
yellow
>>>>and green permits, some of which I sent off to Eric.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Received my seeds close to two months after Eric mailed them, after=
>>>>several telephone calls both to Carolyn Fitzgerald and to the plant=
>>>>quarantine office at the P.O.E.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Last year I tried again and, after waiting for quite awhile, was
>>>>informed that I in fact had been sent the wrong type of permit and =
that
>>>>I had to apply all over again, while in the meantime, we were well =
into
>>>>spring, and my seed shipment was gathering dust at the P.O.E.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>So by that time I decided that life was too short, and maybe there =
were
>>>>less complicated genera to specialize in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>n
>>>>==============3=D==========
===========================
=======================
>>>>Search the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options -
>>>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html
>>>>
>>>>Arisaema-L HOME & GALLERY: http://aeg.florapix.nl/
>>>>
>>>>For help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners at:
>>>>Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl
>>>>==============3=D==========
===========================
=======================
>>>>
>>>>==============3=D==========
===========================
=======================
>>>>Search the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options -
>>>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html
>>>>
>>>>Arisaema-L HOME & GALLERY: http://aeg.florapix.nl/
>>>>
>>>>For help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners at:
>>>>Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl
>>>>==============3=D==========
===========================
=======================
>>>
>>>*************************************************
>>>Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd.
>>>P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/
>>>Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA
>>>Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA
>>>
>>>==========================
===========================
======================
>>>Search the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options -
>>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html
>>>
>>>Arisaema-L HOME & GALLERY: http://aeg.florapix.nl/
>>>
>>>For help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners at:
>>> Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl
>>>==========================
===========================
======================
>>
>>==========================
===========================
======================
>>Search the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options -
>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html
>>
>>Arisaema-L HOME & GALLERY: http://aeg.florapix.nl/
>>
>>For help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners at:
>> Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl
>>==========================
===========================
======================
>
> *************************************************
> Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd.
> P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/
> Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA
> Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA
>
> =
===========================
===========================
=====================
> Search the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options -
> http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html
>
> Arisaema-L HOME & GALLERY: http://aeg.florapix.nl/
>
> For help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners at:
> Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl
> =
===========================
===========================
=====================
==========================================================================
Search the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options -
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<DIV>Thanks. Jim.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>See below.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: "J.E. Shields" <<A
href="mailto:jshields at INDY.NET">jshields at INDY.NET</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: <<A
href="mailto:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL">ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL</A>=&g=
t;</DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 5:10 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: US permit</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>> Hi Adam and all,<BR>> <BR>> Under the general permit, =
seeds are
still allowed, but they absolutely MUST <BR>> have a phyto to come in ==
under
the general plant import permit. <FONT color=#0000ff>Even==
though the
law as wirtten in 1995 has seeds written in as an exception to the ==
phyto
rule? ? .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> The rule <BR>> was apparently always on the books, =
but was
not enforced until some time <BR>> after 9/11. There is =
an
officially recognized permit classification now, <BR>> since about 4 =
years
ago, for small batches of seeds only, the "Small Lots <BR>> of Seeds" ==
permit.<BR>> <BR>> If you want to have seeds sent to you without a ==
phyto,
they MUST be sent <BR>> under the "Small Lots of Seeds" permit. ==
The
requirement for a phyto for <BR>> importing seeds went into effect =
about 5 or
6 years ago (Can you give me chapter and verse? on =
this.)
A consortium of <BR>> plant societies, led by Joyce Fingerut, =
negotiated the
creation of the <BR>> "Small Lots of Seeds" permit to avoid the =
requirement
for a
phyto. &==
nbsp; <FONT
color=#0000ff> I knew this. > <BR></FONT>> There is no =
doubt
whatever about the rules as I've been stating them. The <BR>> =
seeds
sent under the old general plant import permit are going to be either =
<BR>>
returned to the sender or destroyed, unless they are accompanied by a =
<BR>>
phyto. There are specific directions in the USDA/APHIS web site =
for
<BR>> applying to the "Small Lots of Seeds" permit.<BR>> =
<BR> <FONT
color=#0000ff> I have no question that this is how they are now
operating. My beef is with how and when the law was changed, =
and under
what authority? I suspect that I am not going to get an =
answer. (Mr.
Aley kept dodging it or just didn't know and replied =
tangentially.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>Am I still going to have to deal with =
constructing
a 10 digit case- sensitive password (maybe it was 12) with at =
least 1
capital letter, 1 number, and 1 character from the top line of the =
qwerty
keyboard?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff> Do they require this for the =
small lots of
seed permit? . I am balking at applying again out of sheer =
cussedness
at the past administraiton, but also because I have a hearing ==
problem even with a hearing aid, and a special phone, and some =
voices just
don't come through very well for me, aside from not slowing down or =
enunciating
when asked. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT =
color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>. </FONT>>>Hello
Jim.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> It may be that they've =
changed
the law or written new rules governing <BR>>> the application of =
the law
(and it seems that they have) , but Small Lots <BR>>> of seeds, or ==
seeds didn't historically require a permit other than the=2=0
<BR>>> general one. The applicable law as written =
already
governed that <BR>>> eventuality and was subsumed under 319.37-3. =
et seq.
as of 1995, as an <BR>>> exception,. But thanks for =
the
info.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>----- Original Message ----- =
From:
"J.E. Shields" <<A
href="mailto:jshields at INDY.NET">jshields at INDY.NET</A>><BR>>>=To=
: <<A
href="mailto:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL">ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL</A>=&g=
t;<BR>>>Sent:
Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:33 PM<BR>>>Subject: Re: US
permit<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>>Hi
all,<BR>>>><BR>>>>I think you will find that the =
regular plant
import permit, which covers <BR>>>>plants, bulbs, and seeds, =
ALWAYS
requires a phytosanitary certificate.<BR>>>><BR>>>>The ==
Small
Lots of Seeds (SLS) permit covers ONLY seeds, never plants or
<BR>>>>bulbs, and does NOT requite a
phyto.<BR>>>><BR>>>>These are two separate and =
distinct
entities. You need to apply <BR>>>>separately for
each.<BR>>>><BR>>>>Jim
Shields<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>At 12:07 PM =
3/17/2009
-0500, you =
wrote:<BR>>>>>=EF=BB=BF<BR>>>>>Neil? =Did =
you
ever talk to Carolyn Fitzgerald herself? I seem to be
<BR>>>>>facing the same situation that you had. =
They've
apparently changed the <BR>>>>>requirements for importation =
and
cannot seem to understand that the <BR>>>>>import permit =
governing
plants and plant parts covers seed also.. The <BR>>>>>APHIS =
office's
right hand doesn't know whatr the left hand does. And =
<BR>>>>>many
people there seem to think in either/or terms rather than
<BR>>>>>both/and, or can't manage the idea that the basic =
permit
covers seed <BR>>>>>even though it says so and
specifies.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>I'm almost ready to =
give up,
even though I've had a permit since 1958. <BR>>>>>But I hate ==
to be
flummoxed by something like this and give <BR>>>>>up. =
..
However, incompetence and bureaucratized ignorance is nearly
<BR>>>>>impossible to
overcome.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>==
>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>&==
gt;<BR>>>>>-----
Original Message -----<BR>>>>>From: <<A
href="mailto:njorgen at COMCAST.NET>Neil">mailto:njorgen at COMCAST.NET>=Ne=
il</A>
jorgensen<BR>>>>>To: <<A
href="mailto:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL">mai=lt=
o:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL</A><BR>>>&==
gt;>Sent:
Monday, March 16, 2009 1:58 PM<BR>>>>>Subject: Re: US
permit<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>==
;>>>I
hope you all have better luck with the USDA than I
did.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>&==
gt;>>Three
years ago, I drove 40 miles each way to the nearest USDA office to
<BR>>>>>apply for importation permit. Told the person =
I talked
to that I just <BR>>>>>wanted to import a few seeds to for =
my own
use<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>&g==
t;>>Sent
in the application and received, I think, two pages of the yellow
<BR>>>>>and green permits, some of which I sent off to
Eric.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>==
>>>Received
my seeds close to two months after Eric mailed them, after
<BR>>>>>several telephone calls both to Carolyn Fitzgerald =
and to
the plant <BR>>>>>quarantine office at the
P.O.E.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>==
;>>>Last
year I tried again and, after waiting for quite awhile, was
<BR>>>>>informed that I in fact had been sent the wrong type ==
of
permit and that <BR>>>>>I had to apply all over again, while ==
in the
meantime, we were well into <BR>>>>>spring, and my seed =
shipment was
gathering dust at the
P.O.E.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>==
;>>>So
by that time I decided that life was too short, and maybe there were
<BR>>>>>less complicated genera to specialize
in.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>&g==
t;>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>n<BR>>>>>===
===========================
===========================
====================<BR>>>>=
>Search
the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options
-<BR>>>>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html<==
BR>>>>><BR>>>>>Arisaema-L
HOME & GALLERY: <A
href="http://aeg.florapix.nl/">http://aeg.florapix.nl/</A><BR>>>=;&=
gt;><BR>>>>>For
help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners
at:<BR>>>>>Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl<BR>>>>&==
gt;==========================
===========================
======================<BR>>&g=
t;>><BR>>>>>=================
===========================
===========================
=====<BR>>>>>Search
the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options
-<BR>>>>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html<==
BR>>>>><BR>>>>>Arisaema-L
HOME & GALLERY: <A
href="http://aeg.florapix.nl/">http://aeg.florapix.nl/</A><BR>>>=;&=
gt;><BR>>>>>For
help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners
at:<BR>>>>>Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl<BR>>>>&==
gt;==========================
===========================
======================<BR>>&g=
t;><BR>>>>*************************************************<B==
R>>>>Jim
Shields ==
USDA Zone
5 ==
Shields Gardens, Ltd.<BR>>>>P.O. Box
92  ==
;
WWW: <A
href="http://www.shieldsgardens.com/">http://www.shieldsgardens.com/<=/A=
><BR>>>>Westfield,
Indiana 46074, USA<BR>>>>Tel. =
++1-317-867-3344
or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in
USA<BR>>>><BR>>>>===============
===========================
===========================
=======<BR>>>>Search
the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options
-<BR>>>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html<BR>&==
gt;>><BR>>>>Arisaema-L
HOME & GALLERY: <A
href="http://aeg.florapix.nl/">http://aeg.florapix.nl/</A><BR>>>=;&=
gt;<BR>>>>For
help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners
at:<BR>>>> <A=
href="mailto:Arisaema-L-request at nic.surfnet.nl">Arisaema-L-request at ni=c.=
surfnet.nl</A><BR>>>>=================
===========================
===========================
=====<BR>>><BR>>>=====3=D========
===========================
===========================
========<BR>>>Search
the Arisaema-L archives & subscription options
-<BR>>>http://listserv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html<BR>>&==
gt;<BR>>>Arisaema-L
HOME & GALLERY: <A
href="http://aeg.florapix.nl/">http://aeg.florapix.nl/</A><BR>>>=;<=
BR>>>For
help with this list, send an e-mail to the listowners
at:<BR>>> <A
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===========================
===========================
====<BR>>
<BR>> *************************************************<BR>> Jim=
Shields ==
USDA Zone
5 ==
Shields Gardens, Ltd.<BR>> P.O. Box
92  ==
;
WWW: <A
href="http://www.shieldsgardens.com/">http://www.shieldsgardens.com/<=/A=
><BR>>
Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA<BR>> Tel.
++1-317-867-3344 =
or
toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA<BR>> <BR>>
===========================
===========================
=====================<BR>>
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erv.surfnet.nl/archives/Arisaema-l.html</A><BR>>
<BR>> Arisaema-L HOME & GALLERY: <A
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