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hardy  Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL> Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
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From: "G. Svanholm" <gote at SVANHOLM.SE>
Subject: Re: global warning
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At 14:35 2006-01-09 -0500, you wrote:
>At  1/9/2006 11:34 AM, you wrote:
>>How can a tsunami be evidence for that we do not effect long term clima=te
>>changes???

>Just as well as melting glaciers are evidence of the opposite.

Melting glaciers are in my view evidence for global warming not evidence =of
causes.
I just do not understand what you are writing. Perhaps because I am a B-d=y
foreigner.

>>I always believed that Kopernicus did that in his book that was publish=ed in
>>1543.
>
>On this we can agree. I got the wrong "K", but I think it should be Cope=rnicus.
>
>
>> >My father was one of a team of two that experimentally proved part of
>> >Einsteins theory of relativity and that Doppler effect holds true in =light
>> >as well as sound. The latter the basis for determining the size and s=hape
>> >of the universe as well as modern radar.
>
>Sorry. I overstated on the size business. It's easy to do as evidenced b=y
>your attributions to Bush.
>
>>I am sure that you are aware that you cannot perform a controlled exper=iment
>>or measurement that determines the size of the universe.
>
>Did I say that???? The experiment would be to prove that man is responsi=ble
>in a significant way for the climate changes we're witnessing.

I am not quite sure what you said. It looks to me as if you require
controlled experiments when you do not like the theory but not if you do =not
disgree or do not care.
I have to admit that I take a similar stance. If my neighbour tells me he
saw a moose in his garden yesterday I believe him without thinking. If he
tells me it was a unicorn I want proof. Not necessarily a controlled
experiment. Other evidence is OK too.
In my part of the world the climate was much warmer during Bronze age and=I
have doubted the warming issue but I think evidence seems to be accumulat=ing.

>>So if you can believe that we can determine the size of universe, (I do=) why
>>do you need controlled experiment when it comes to global warming??

>I don't, do you? Neither do I believe man's pitiful efforts are responsi=ble
>for significant climate changes. That's why we need a good experiment.

Do what? Need controlled experiments for size of Universe or for global
warming or believe that it is possible to determine the size of the Unive=rse?.

>>I do agree that anecdotical "evidence" can be misleading in the extreme=but
>>Greenland ice cores are hardly anecdotical evidence.

>Of what? That the climate changes? Of course. That man has caused it?
>Hardly.

Evidence of the levels of CO2 during the time when Man could have influen=ced
the levels and a fair time before that. Then it has to be compared with t=he
amount of CO2 that gas been released and that which has been absorbed. Th=is
work is hardly anecdotical eveidence. The evidence has to be weighed in
normal scientific ways by those who have studied the subject. It seems to=me
that most of those disagree with you.

>>All this is highly entertaining but is it really Arisaema stuff?
>
>Not really. I wish I'd never responded to Adam's assertion. One can't
>really change anyone's mind with this kind of discussion. Belief in
>scientific theories is a kind of religion just as the classical religion=s
>are. When they're proved experimentally. they become facts instead of be=liefs.

Belief in scientific theoried is not a kind of religion. Of course there =are
people around for which this is true but these are in my view usually
ignorant people who try hang up an irrational belief on a misunderstood
theory. Unfortunately we cannot prove everything experimentally and some
people state that we can only disprove by experiment.
Can you prove by experiment that the Andromeda galaxy exists? Do you beli=eve
it exists? Can you prove that you exist as a human being and not as a
program in a super-super computer?

>As far as politics go, that's even more of a religion for many people. M=y
>view is that politicians are all dangerous.

Many of them undoubtedly are, but there are different levels in Hell you
know. Unfortunately political behaviour is not limited to politicians.

>So how are your Arisaema growing this year?

Since it is only January they do not grow at all this year.
Arisaemas have in the main been a disappointment for me. I do not have th=e
time to grow plants that must be overwintered frost free. and my winters =are
too harsh.
amurense is a great success it spreads itself but in a behaved way. I wis=h
it held the spathes above the leaf.
triphyllum can survive a few years and then disappear.
sikokianum may survive one year and die the next
Candidissima is the same.
I wonder if these two need a longer ripening and higher soil temperatures
than I can supply.
maximowiczii from a Japanes friend has survived two years.
serratum from the same friend survived three years and died.
I still go on trying. I have planted Candidissmum from Janis Ruksans hopi=ng
he may have a hardier strain and a new serratum from Japan.
I will know in the early summer.