Arisaema hybrids

[Christopher Gussman]

I am enjoying this discussion immensely, and it is interesting to read th=e wide range of opinions.   I agree with Adam and others that record-keep=ing is the best solution, although we should encourage the bees (or the f=lies and gnats as the case might be).  We are just beginning to discover =and understand species (?) from the other side of the world, yet we know =very little about the genetics and distribution of our native triphyllum =complex in the states.  I won't start the stewardsonii, species or varian=t argument again, save that my stewardsoniis are now at their peak in New=jersey while most of the triphyllum forms have long since faded or set sîd. We have a lot to learn about this Genus, but that is the fun.  Dedic=ating yourself to preserving pure forms from known locales, or crossing e=verything that blooms to see what results are both ok.  The only thing I =ask is that if you are one of the latter, don't pass off your resultant oÿspring as if you are one of the former.  Good things come out of both eÿort.   
To do a 180, are most (some, all?) clones self-incompatible?  I have =a late-blooming dark form of triphyllum which I have had around for about years.  I have definite males and females (clones), but never have se=en a single seed.   Enjoy!  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Adam Fikso
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:53 PM
To: ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL
Subject: Re: Arisaema hybrids
 
I am replying to this rather complicated posting by Pascal bcause he has
endorsed an important and easily misunderstood idea. The issue, I think c=an
be "boiled down" to keeping adequate records of crosses made, and crosses
attempted, together with chromosome counts of species or clones or sample=s
from a "hybrid swarm", collected under number.    (James Archibald's term=, I
think, but maybe Watson's) where these are available.
Chen Yi's collections wouldn't be such a problem, I suspect, if she was a=ble
to keep her tubers separate from each other after they were collected.   =I
have a few things under number that clearly do not match up with numbers
already indexed by members of this group.

There are issues of record keeping, lost  tags, misidentified stuff,
indecipherable writing on tags because of weathering, tags of crosses mad=e
that are blown off by wind (here in the Chicago area).  Tags firmly plantí
in the ground, pulled up by a misstep  and falling to a place where it ge=ts
"put back"  inaccurately, onto the wrong plant.

What I find really reassuring, and pleasing, is the arrival of the intern=et
which allows comparison between clones,from a particularized area  which
historically was often as much as 150 years away from the original
collector's notes.

----- Original Message -----
From: <pbruggeman at TISCALI.NL>
To: <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 2:50 PM
Subject: Betr: Re: Arisaema hybrids


Tony,

I think liking or disliking hybrids is probably both largely based on
emotions,
if not, please enlighten me.

survives in hybrids. Foodcrops do not run that risk as much as ornamental=s
because food has a much higher priority than preserving a nice garden pla=nt
in its native habitat. What is a treasured plant for you and me, can be
a irritating weed for a native and not worth protecting. Think of how man=y
habitats are destroyed to produce food.....
are covered in Cites under Appendix C, I do believe many species should
be added to that list and the list itself should have a higher priority
status than an appendix so species like ostiolatum, vexillatum,
sarracenioides,
psittacus and many other rare endemics can be better protected. Many peop=le
on the AEG probably don't know how fast Arisaema-habitats are destroyed.


I think that in China the rate of deforestation exceeds that rates of the
Brazilian rainforests.
SO, my position is that if Chen Yi is "saving" these things for us to gro=w.
And we get to take advantage of her efforts, it becomes our responsibilit=y
tokeep adequate records if she is unable to.

In my earlier posting on this subject I already mentioned that some of,
what we now consider species, are the result of natural hybrids in the pa=st
(as was mentioned by others on the AEG). It is one of the proven processe=s
that lead to speciation. However, the Arisaema-groups that are formed by
these processes are the most difficult for taxonomists to deal with so ca=n
one blame taxonomists for disliking attempts by hybridizers to make their
work more complicated?

If it weren't for the natural hybridization we would have far less natura=l
"species" to begin with so yes, it is a important phenomenon. I don't thi=nk
artificial hybridization can or should be prevented, I only ask those who
like to have a go with it with Arisaema to do it with some common sense
and yes, preferably not with rarer species before they are established in
cultivation (but that is just me?). Tony, you propagate Arisaema through
tissue culture, why don't you try ALL the Chen Yi species you have bought
so you don't have to buy these wild-collected plants again? You make mone=y
and without realizing it do nature a big favour. The species gets
established
with the result that there is more than enough material to hybridize with
and we are all happy (apart from Chen Yi....).


Does tissue culture enable this?

Yes, a large percentage of Arisaema species are highly polymorphic and as
a matter of fact, Arisaema is probably one of the most actively evolving
genera known

I didn't know this!  Generally accepted fact by those who know?  Certainl=y
Lycoris seems to be doing this also. From what I've read, there is a lot =of
hybridization in nature among  what are called "cyto-races" where chromos=ome
numbers run 11, and 2n ", but also 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. ...n





Live and let live......  But, it's hard to be humble when one knows so
much.  Adam
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