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[Arisaema Enthusiast Group (AEG) Discussion List (and other=]

hardy  Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL> Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
Sender: "Arisaema Enthusiast Group (AEG) Discussion List (and other=
From: irisman <irisman at AMERITECH.NET>
Subject: Re: A. fargesii  to A. franchetianum? and response  Roots v=
s. rot? 
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Hmmm!--Yeah!  Re:  this problem of  fargesii and franchetianum.  Has the
possibility of a "hybrid swarm" been ruled out?  With some irises the
variation can be traced, say, east to west and over time they have come t=o
have different growing  and blooming seasons.

Has anything been written on what determines whether a tuber will grow
roots, rot, or sulk?  , e.g., planting time?  Dusting with sulfur , plant=ing
in sand and gravel mix--anything at all.? Some of my Heronswood tubers di=ed,
Some of my Kaichen, some of my Hornig.  I have sort of ruled out winter c=old
because it didnt get much below +5F.  If the tuber has roots before freez=ing
weather sets in, is it more likely to survive the winter and grow?  I
confess that I have not searched the archives for this  information , so
this may not be a legitimate  question to those who know.    Adam Fikso i=n
Glenview, IL





----- Original Message -----
From: "Petra Schmidt" <petra at PLANTDELIGHTS.COM>
To: <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: A. fargesii to A. franchetianum?


> This is not an easy one to accept...fargesii and franchetianum as being
the
> same???????
>
> fargesii blooms earlier (May in NC) and tends to clump
> easily...franchetianum blooms later (late June-July) and doesn't clump
> easily...not to mention the differences in leaf shape and thickness and
the
> spathe differences....what characters are you using to lump these two
> together?
>
> I haven't looked at the archives yet and I will be sure to do so...for
now,
> I'm suprised about the lumping of the species...are you publishing this
> somewhere soon...we, in the world of nursery businesses, want to keep u=p
> with what taxonomists present.
> Petra
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "P.Bruggeman" <pbruggeman at WISH.NET>
> To: <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: A. fargesii to A. franchetianum?
>
>
> > Dear Marge,
> >
> > Maybe I might be able to explain to you the fargesii to franchetianum
> > problem because I am partly responsible for your confusion. For a mor=e
> > in-depth explanation you have to look in the AEG-archives (26/08/2002=)
but
> > in short it comes to this. Wilbert Hetterscheid and I have analysed t=he
> > (somewhat incomplete) original descriptions and most forms of these 2
> > species currently in cultivation. We have looked at the various flowe=r
and
> > leaf characters and tried to find characters that distinguished one
> species
> > from the other. In order for a species to be named as such, it must b=e
> > possible to describe a stable, unique character OR set of characters
> (shape
> > of female flowers for example) that distinguishes that species from
> related
> > species. Unfortunately we have not been able to find any stable
character
> or
> > set of characters that set the 2 apart. All the characters could be
found
> in
> > every conceivable combination which suggests that they were all
variations
> > of the same species. Whenever that happens, the name for that species
> would
> > be the oldest of the 2, in this case franchetianum.
> >
> > I can understand that this sounds somewhat hard to accept given the
> > variation of the spathe shape but we feel our conclusion is justified
> based
> > on the number of forms we have examined. Although some individual pla=nts
> are
> > horticulturally quite distinct, taxonomically they seem impossible to
> > separate. Show me 2 horticulturally separate forms and I can show you=an
> > intermediate form........
> >
> > The problem is that we are dealing with a genus that is extremely
variable
> > which means that sometimes we can't put an exact label on a plant, ev=en
if
> > we want to. Those of us who have seen and examined Arisaema in the wi=ld
> know
> > that some species can be very variable, even in single populations.
> > Franchetianum/fargesii seems to be just such a case and the same
situation
> > could be found in species like for instance consanguineum, elephas or
> > lobatum. This variation even lead the Japanese botanist Jin Murata to
> > conclude that a lot of Japanese species previously described as
separate,
> > were not as separate when looked at on a larger scale during populati=on
> > studies. Although nodes within the variation range could be named, th=e
> > intermediate forms showed that the flower characters previously used =for
> > discriminating between the species were not stable. He therefore crea=ted
> the
> > "serratum-group" and renamed a considerable number of species to
serratum,
> > not because they were the same but because he failed to find stable
> > characters to distinguish them on. The choice he then made was to nam=e
> them
> > all serratum until new characters were found to distinguish them on.
> >
> > The friction comes when nurseries and collectors want to put a label =on
a
> > specific plant when that is taxonomically hard to justify. It is then=up
> to
> > the individual to accept the choice made by taxonomists. You could al=so
> > decide to leave the situation as it is and for nurseries that option =is
> > quite understandable because they rather sell a plant under a separat=e
> name
> > then offer 2 plants as A. species "... " var. 1 & 2. The third option
> would
> > be to not bother at all about the name and simply enjoy the flowers!
> >
> > I don't know if I have taken away your confusion but hopefully you ge=t
an
> > idea what the reasoning behind the move from fargesii to franchetianu=m
> > choice was.
> >
> > Pascal
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: Arisaema Enthusiast Group (AEG) Discussion List (and other hardy
> > Aroids) [mailto:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL]Namens Marge Talt
> > Verzonden: woensdag 10 juli 2002 6:06
> > Aan: ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL
> > Onderwerp: A. fargesii to A. franchetianum?
> >
> >
> > > From: George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> > >
> > > But then A. fargesii should have come up even though it's name has
> > been
> > > reduced to A. franchetianum. It can't be that fussy.
> > ----------
> >
> > Oh Ray...don't tell me I've got to re-learn that plant's name yet
> > again.  It was purchased as A. franchetianum and then research
> > indicated it was actually A. fargesii...so are these not two separate
> > species now?
> >
> > Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
> > mtalt at hort.net
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