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hardy  Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL> Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
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From: Petra Schmidt <petra at PLANTDELIGHTS.COM>
Subject: Re: A. fargesii  to A. franchetianum?
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This is not an easy one to accept...fargesii and franchetianum as being t=he
same???????

fargesii blooms earlier (May in NC) and tends to clump
easily...franchetianum blooms later (late June-July) and doesn't clump
easily...not to mention the differences in leaf shape and thickness and t=he
spathe differences....what characters are you using to lump these two
together?

I haven't looked at the archives yet and I will be sure to do so...for no=w,
I'm suprised about the lumping of the species...are you publishing this
somewhere soon...we, in the world of nursery businesses, want to keep up
with what taxonomists present.
Petra




----- Original Message -----
From: "P.Bruggeman" <pbruggeman at WISH.NET>
To: <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: A. fargesii to A. franchetianum?


> Dear Marge,
>
> Maybe I might be able to explain to you the fargesii to franchetianum
> problem because I am partly responsible for your confusion. For a more
> in-depth explanation you have to look in the AEG-archives (26/08/2002) =but
> in short it comes to this. Wilbert Hetterscheid and I have analysed the
> (somewhat incomplete) original descriptions and most forms of these 2
> species currently in cultivation. We have looked at the various flower =and
> leaf characters and tried to find characters that distinguished one
species
> from the other. In order for a species to be named as such, it must be
> possible to describe a stable, unique character OR set of characters
(shape
> of female flowers for example) that distinguishes that species from
related
> species. Unfortunately we have not been able to find any stable charact=er
or
> set of characters that set the 2 apart. All the characters could be fou=nd
in
> every conceivable combination which suggests that they were all variati=ons
> of the same species. Whenever that happens, the name for that species
would
> be the oldest of the 2, in this case franchetianum.
>
> I can understand that this sounds somewhat hard to accept given the
> variation of the spathe shape but we feel our conclusion is justified
based
> on the number of forms we have examined. Although some individual plant=s
are
> horticulturally quite distinct, taxonomically they seem impossible to
> separate. Show me 2 horticulturally separate forms and I can show you a=n
> intermediate form........
>
> The problem is that we are dealing with a genus that is extremely varia=ble
> which means that sometimes we can't put an exact label on a plant, even=if
> we want to. Those of us who have seen and examined Arisaema in the wild
know
> that some species can be very variable, even in single populations.
> Franchetianum/fargesii seems to be just such a case and the same situat=ion
> could be found in species like for instance consanguineum, elephas or
> lobatum. This variation even lead the Japanese botanist Jin Murata to
> conclude that a lot of Japanese species previously described as separat=e,
> were not as separate when looked at on a larger scale during population
> studies. Although nodes within the variation range could be named, the
> intermediate forms showed that the flower characters previously used fo=r
> discriminating between the species were not stable. He therefore create=d
the
> "serratum-group" and renamed a considerable number of species to serrat=um,
> not because they were the same but because he failed to find stable
> characters to distinguish them on. The choice he then made was to name
them
> all serratum until new characters were found to distinguish them on.
>
> The friction comes when nurseries and collectors want to put a label on=a
> specific plant when that is taxonomically hard to justify. It is then u=p
to
> the individual to accept the choice made by taxonomists. You could also
> decide to leave the situation as it is and for nurseries that option is
> quite understandable because they rather sell a plant under a separate
name
> then offer 2 plants as A. species "... " var. 1 & 2. The third option
would
> be to not bother at all about the name and simply enjoy the flowers!
>
> I don't know if I have taken away your confusion but hopefully you get =an
> idea what the reasoning behind the move from fargesii to franchetianum
> choice was.
>
> Pascal
>
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Arisaema Enthusiast Group (AEG) Discussion List (and other hardy
> Aroids) [mailto:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL]Namens Marge Talt
> Verzonden: woensdag 10 juli 2002 6:06
> Aan: ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL
> Onderwerp: A. fargesii to A. franchetianum?
>
>
> > From: George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> >
> > But then A. fargesii should have come up even though it's name has
> been
> > reduced to A. franchetianum. It can't be that fussy.
> ----------
>
> Oh Ray...don't tell me I've got to re-learn that plant's name yet
> again.  It was purchased as A. franchetianum and then research
> indicated it was actually A. fargesii...so are these not two separate
> species now?
>
> Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
> mtalt at hort.net
> Editor:  Gardening in Shade
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