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Sun May 2 18:48:43 CEST 1999

hardy  Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL> Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
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From: Paul Christian <paul at RAREPLANTS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Naming caution (long and tetchy)
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Dear All, 

I tend to lurk these days and have lost count of the responses that I hav=e
typed in the heat of the moment but binned before they were sent, BUT I=
cannot
try and restrain myself from getting involved on this one.=A0 

I don't feel that anything dishonest is being done with the names.=A0 M=ost o=
f
the
shots at names are on target, some are real bull's eyes. Yes there are a =few
that miss the mark by a mile but by and large most of what we have had ha=s
been
well-named and good material, and we have done a lot of trade with her.==A0
Plants
may not arrive with a name that was verified by Kew 10 years ago when a
specialist visited or the names may not always be in accord with current
thinking.=A0 

Half of the new offerings from Chenyi have not been seen since they were
described in the first place.=A0 The types are often sketchy or inadequ=ate=
or
were bombed out in WW2.=A0 They are things that were perhaps collected =by=
one of
the French missionaries or Forrest or Rock and have never been seen since=,
many
did not even make it into cultivation in the first place.=A0 If you hav=e
specimens from all across the range of the plant and you know its=
variability
and you can positively identify it then great, but Chinese taxonomy is no=t=
yet
in that state.=A0 It is still in its infancy in a country bigger than t=he US=
A
but
which has been little botanised so far.=A0=A0 If we are being honest,=how ma=
ny
here
had even heard of Arisaema du-bois reymondiae before Chenyi listed it, 5 =?
6 ?=A0
and we are folks particularly interested in the genus.=A0 Hands up who =can
simply
and quickly give the essential differences between Arisaema franchetianum=,
rhombiforme, fargesii and their ilk ? - I couldn't. What are the exact
differences between A.saxatile and A.odorum ? Consider the discussions th=at
have taken place here on a numbered or possibly wrongly named species
sometimes
over 12 or 18 months before a name that seems right has emerged.=A0=
Sometimes
this has had to be reversed.=A0 Lets not start slinging jibes at the na=ming,
no-one here could do better, most here would do a lot worse.=A0=A0= 

On the subject of quality of plants rather than names, someone (a while=
back)
said something (to the effect) that all their plants from Chenyi had all=
died
and that they were not happy.=A0 I don't know who said it, I don't want=to=
get
personal and thus I am not looking back to see, but it is another example=of
how things have sometimes been presented in these discussions.=A0 The=
inference
is obvious even if the poster did not actually type the words " the plant=s
were
rubbish ".=A0 I would bet that it was poor cultivation that killed them=, not
poor
quality.=A0 It is very easy to get three plants, kill them and spout of=f=
about
the supplier.=A0 Things get badly mistreated by some growers even when =they
think
that what they are doing is just what a plant needs. Leaving poor=
cultivation
aside, whose "fault" is it if a plant actually proves to be difficult to=
grow,
such things do exist !=A0 It is easy and face-saving to make it the=
nursery's
fault if the grower is not actually very good at growing (and who wants t=o=
own
up to this ?).=A0 My own, first-hand, experiences based on a large samp=le
size is
that there are few faults with quality. I can give a example of how I cou=ld
have felt the opposite and I am not making it up for illustration, even i=f I
have over simplified it a touch.

We bought some 500 Fritillaria in five species in our first year's dealin=gs
with Chenyi.=A0 They arrived later than I would have liked, that is the=way=
that
they and others in China deal in the particular genus.=A0 I had raised =the
matter
in advance but their grower in turn supllied late and things are more
geared to
medicinal supply in this genus, but I digress.=A0 The late arrival was =not=
to my
liking but I wanted to grow Chinese Fritillaria so took the chance.=A0= 

One species survived gloriously well, I probably didn't lose more than on=e=
or
two and essentially they did well, the other 400 or so I killed.=A0 The=y=
didn't
die, they were not bad plants - I killed them, my fault not Chenyi's.=A=0 I a=
m
not
trying to blame anyone else on this or besmirch the quality of the stock.==A0=
I
alone killed these plants. I could have ranted, raved and blamed Chenyi b=ut=
I
acknowledge that it was my fault.=A0 I handled them incorrectly and pai=d the
price.

Why am I so sure I did it ? well because this year I bought more like 100=0
Fritillaria and doubt that I have lost any, because I treated them proper=ly
and
used my brain in handling Fritillaria that arrived late, anticipating=
problems
that I could see (and had found) in establishing them.=A0 I headed off =the
problems and it worked, I didn't kill them and I take full credit for tha=t
too.=A0=A0 Poor cultivation killed them, correct cultivation worked a=nd some
are in
flower as I type. ( In case these quantities scare people and this is spa=rks
off another tiresome thread, can I add that these are nursery-grown plant=s,
the
bulbs were and are pristine perfect even bulbs, and the ones that I kille=d
were
the same.)=A0 

In general I have lost remarkably few plants, odd ones here and there,=
spread
across many species.=A0 That is to be expected, it happens in the real=
world.=A0 I
have it occur in stocks that have been here for years, it happens in the=
seed
beds all the time.=A0 It happens.=A0 Only in one case have I actually=been=
able to
say that poor quality plants were supplied, and frankly I wondered about=
even
ordering this particular genus in the first place, as I have had problems==
with
other species from Japanese and European nurseries. I won't say what it
was, it
could have just been my particular bag-full and may not happen if you ord=er
the
same thing.

I don't feel that I am being over-forgiving with all of this, simply
acknowledging the state of things in the real world. These are new things
coming half way around the planet.=A0 Before they leave the certificati=on
process
means that some will be damaged beyond viability, it happens.=A0 I expe=ct=
losses
on the way, I expect some deaths after - again "it happens"=A0 and it i=s=
foolish
to expect otherwise.=A0 I am very grateful for being given the chance t=o get=
my
hands on these plants and grow them, cherish them, worship their wierdnes=s,
discuss their variability but I have no gripes with their provider, who i=s
doing a VERY good job, so lets lay off huh ?

I find the slinging of mud at names and quality to be totally unfounded a=nd
cannot understand why anyone feels the need. Much of the "evidence" seems
to be
based on a sample size of a pot-full and extrapolated to cover the entire
supply of that species, at worst some of it is anecdotal.=A0 A great de=al of
what
has been said against Chenyi is in direct contradiction to my own persona=l
experiences based on good numbers of my own plants growing here, and not=
based
on something told to me by someone who heard it that it happened to someo=ne
else's plant.

I would rather that we got back to the plants too, but whatever we do let=us
get off this stupid silly thread that should never have been started in t=he
first place, and certainly deserves to be buried as quickly as possible.

Now I am going back to lurking and will not even enter the thread about t=he
Arisaema sikokianum that always faces the path ( they don't by the way ) =I
have
just wasted even more time going out with a ruler and a pencil, and ahh
shucks,
it got me, that one really got to me, 

look they just don't - they really, really don't,=A0 it is a total an u=tter
no-no,=A0 take my word for it but don't make me defend it, okay :-)=A=0 

------------------------ 
Paul Christian BSc PhD 
P.O.Box 468, WREXHAM, LL13 9XR, U.K. 
Tel 01978 -366399=A0=A0 Fax 01978 266466 
email=A0=A0 paul at rareplants.co.uk 
website "http://rareplants.co.uk" 