A. griffithii v.pradhan

[pbruggeman at TISCALI.NL]

Dear Adam,

Yep, I mean meters but I am not getting into that metric discussion. On t=he
other hand, the British have proved they can convert so why can't you....=.?

As for the mositure levels of the soil, yes, the amount of rain during fl=owering
is relatively low. In the Himalayas you get pre-monsoon showers during Ma=y
but they are short and occasional. Most griffithii flower mid-May in Sikk=im
and West Bengal and during my fieldtrips in these periods I have had no r=ain
whatswhoever because the monsoon only starts early to mid June in these a=reas.
In the higher valleys in N Sikkim where large populations of griffithii o=ccur
the soil is drier than further south in W Bengal but these populations al=so
flower somewhat later because it takes longer for the monsoon to reach th=ese
valleys. I'm am not saying that this applies to all griffithii but as mos=t
griffithii in cultivation come from exporters of clones from W Bengal as
a general rule it does. I do however have to note that not all species fr=om
these areas have the same adaptation to the monsoon because jacquemontii
for example only starts to flower after the monsoon has started and they
sometimes grow in the same areas as griffithii, particularly in the Phalu=t
area of W Bengal. Underground growth is already going on but jacquemontii=
only comes up in June (as does A. ostiolatum). Unfortunately the temperat=ure
and rain pattterns in the Himalayas are opposite to what most gardeners h=ave
to deal with in the West so it might be a good idea to plant A. griffithi=i
and other species that dislike the winterwet in parts of the garden that
are drier during winter or at the base of shrubs and trees. Oddly enough
griffithii is one of the few species that don't really like to be stored
completely dry in pot-cultivation.....

By the way, the most extreme adaptation to the monsoon can probably be fo=und
in some S Indian and African species which only start to produce undergro=und
growth AFTER the monsoon has started and the temperatures cool down a lit=tle.
This extreme adaptation has actually made them rather vulnerable because
the start of the monsoon seems to be changing as a result of the global w=arming
and there is a real concern the pollinators of these species appear at th=e
wrong period so the plants are not pollinated. Anybody that has been to t=he
Himalayas in the last couple of years probably already knows the monsoon
period is shifting but thusfar very little research has been done on the
effects of this shift on the flora. If members on this list know about su=ch
research I would be very interested to get a literature reference.

Pascal

>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>Date:         Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:00:06 -0500
>Reply-To:     "Arisaema Enthusiast Group (AEG) Discussion List (and othe=r
>hardy              Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
>From:         Adam Fikso <irisman at AMERITECH.NET>
>Subject: Re: A. griffithii v.pradhan
>To:           ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL
>
>
>Thanks Pascal.  I certainly did not know that they were barely moist at
the
>
>time they started to emerge from the ground.  But that is about how the
soil
>
>is at the moment.. , some moisture from gentle rains, earlier moisture f=rom
>
>snowmelt, but we did not have a lot of snow this winter.  Today, I also

>noticed a thunbergii v. urashima coming up also, about 2.5 " out of the

>ground  (5 cm.).
>
>I think that your information will be helpful because the soil is quite

>dense, and I should probably be more careful of the moisture content ,
>because there's little aeration through it, I suspect.
>
>
>   When you say 2800-3200--I gather that you mean meters, not feet.  Eve=n
>
>though I understand metrics, in the U.S.  we tend not to use it except i=n
>
>scientific settings, and not always, even then, aa-a-and we think in inc=hes
>
>and feet unless we have shifted (in our heads) to the other system.   Mi=nus
>
>10 C is still +14 F and from my narrow point of view well above the zero=
>and
>below zero  (F) temperatures we are accustomed to in the Chicago area.
>You're right, however about the moisture issues, and Kniphofia which can=
>
>tolerate zero (F) temps if relatively dry will rot out if much wetter.
>
>This winter was mild (for us) only aout 2 days and nights at zero (F) an=d
>
>Scilla peruviana came through in good health planted about 20 " from the=
>
>foundation of the house along with Crinum "Super Ellen"
>
>You make a good point and I'm glad for the information.    They really d=o
>
>want the water AFTER  blooming?.... Just the opposite of some of the iri=ses
>
>I grow.  Thanks, Pascal.  Regards, Adam Fikso in  Glenview, IL.  Z 5a
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <pbruggeman at TISCALI.NL>
>To: <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:10 PM
>Subject: Betr: A. griffithii v.pradhan
>
>
>Dear Adam,
>
>Maybe I will achieve the opposite effect of what I intend but it might b=e
>helpful to tell something about the natural habitat of grifiithii. Arisa=ema
>griffithii generally occurs between 2800 to 3200 in the Himalayas (excep=t
>for the "hookerianum"-form which grows at 2200-2400 but is not in
>cultivation)
>in the company of plants that should generally be able to survive -10C f=or
>long periods so I do not think frost is the problem, in that respect it
is
>hardy. The problem is more likely the moisture level of the soil. I have=
>studied thousands of griffithii during flowering time and the most strik=ing
>thing about all habitats it occurs at is that the soil during flowering
is
>just moist and very much on the dry side. They can take a lot of moistur=e
>but only after the flowering when the monsoon begins in their natural
>habitat,
>NOT during dormancy. Although generalisations regarding cultivation are

>often
>tricky with widespread species like griffithii that occupy varying habit=ats
>(some griffithii grow very exposed in full sun, others in deep shade of

>bamboo
>forests), most of the clones currently in cultivation should be protecte=d
>from winterwet. WIth the increasingly wet winters in the West this is a

>measure
>that must be taken with more species that should be "hardy enough" but
>nevertheless
>still die.
>
>As for A. griffithii pradhanii, most (if not all!) plants in cultivation=
>under that name are just "broader than usual" variants of plain griffith=ii.
>Griffithii is a much more variable than the clones currently in cultivat=ion
>suggest (although several new clones will be introduced in the next few

>years
>under cultivar names by an Indian nursery) and the griffithii pradhanii
in
>cultivation comes from certain populations of griffithii that have broad=er
>spathes than other populations. "True" griffithii pradhanii sometimes oc=curs
>in populations of normal griffithii and is a completely different "beast=".
>Generally these plants are very big with spathes upto 28-30 cm broad and=
>might possibly be polyploid forms of griffithii. The type locality of
>griffithii
>pradhanii is under military control so the plants at this locality can't=
>be studied but I have been told this particular population is also a mix=ture
>of normal griffithii's and specimens "on anabolic steroids"....... True

>griffithii
>padhanii is horticulturally different from most griffithii currently in

>cultivation
>but does not deserve a different taxonomic status, it's just a big form
of
>griffithii and I would much more prefer the use of a cultivar name for t=he
>broad forms that are wrongly sold or "griffithii pradhanii".
>
>
>Greetz,
>
>Pascal
>
>
>>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>>Date:         Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:17:15 -0500
>>Reply-To:     "Arisaema Enthusiast Group (AEG) Discussion List (and oth=er
>>hardy              Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
>>From:         Adam Fikso <irisman at AMERITECH.NET>
>>Subject: A. griffithii v.pradhan
>>To:           ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL
>>
>>
>>Hello all. I was delighted to see--just now-- the emerging cataphyll sh=eath
>>
>>of A. griffithii, v. pradhan.  So, I can confirm that it is probably ha=rdy
>>
>>in Zone 6.  I am in Zone 5a, but the winter was relatively mild, with o=nly
>>2
>>nights of 0. F weather, during a two-week period of single digit weathe=r
>>
>>where the range was from 0 to 13F.  The tuber was planted about 8" deep=
>in
>>a
>>clayey loam that has had occasional fertilization during the last  3
>>years.)
>>
>>The bottom of the hole was  amended with  a handful of gypsum and pea
>>gravel
>>
>>in the bottom, dug in for about another inch or two.
>>
>>There was a recent question about  A.griffithii's hardiness, so this sh=ould
>>
>>be useful information.  The tuber was planted about 4.5 feet from the
>>concrete block foundation of my house on the east side, where it is war=med
>>
>>by morning sun.  Radiant ground heat from the basement and the house
>>foundation is regarded as too far away to have made  much more than a
>>minimum difference.   In this area, the frost line is regarded as at le=ast
>>4
>>feet below ground, for the location of water pipes, etc..
>>
>>The height of it is about 4" which suggests that it came up with the
>>sikokianum, the SikoTak, and a day or two before the earliest triphyllu=m
>>I
>>have--unless, of course,it grew 4" overnight.  Of course this raises th=e
>>
>>question as to whether there is much data on the growth rates of these
>>things.  Please, Ray, Don't send me to the Archives, as I have not been=
>able
>>
>>to find anything there rapidly enough, even if it is there.  I'm willin=g
>>to
>>do my homework, but basically, I'm still a 3" x 5 card" man,  or maybe
>>Hollerith cards, even..
>>
>>    Happy growing, Adam Fikso-- in Glenview, IL.
>
>
>
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