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hardy  Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL> Aroids)" <ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL>
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From: "P.Bruggeman" <pbruggeman at WISH.NET>
Subject: Re: A. fargesii  to A. franchetianum?
In-Reply-To: <E17S8gB-0006sZ-00 at flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
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Dear Marge,

Maybe I might be able to explain to you the fargesii to franchetianum
problem because I am partly responsible for your confusion. For a more
in-depth explanation you have to look in the AEG-archives (26/08/2002) bu=t
in short it comes to this. Wilbert Hetterscheid and I have analysed the
(somewhat incomplete) original descriptions and most forms of these 2
species currently in cultivation. We have looked at the various flower an=d
leaf characters and tried to find characters that distinguished one speci=es
from the other. In order for a species to be named as such, it must be
possible to describe a stable, unique character OR set of characters (sha=pe
of female flowers for example) that distinguishes that species from relat=ed
species. Unfortunately we have not been able to find any stable character=or
set of characters that set the 2 apart. All the characters could be found=in
every conceivable combination which suggests that they were all variation=s
of the same species. Whenever that happens, the name for that species wou=ld
be the oldest of the 2, in this case franchetianum.

I can understand that this sounds somewhat hard to accept given the
variation of the spathe shape but we feel our conclusion is justified bas=ed
on the number of forms we have examined. Although some individual plants =are
horticulturally quite distinct, taxonomically they seem impossible to
separate. Show me 2 horticulturally separate forms and I can show you an
intermediate form........

The problem is that we are dealing with a genus that is extremely variabl=e
which means that sometimes we can't put an exact label on a plant, even i=f
we want to. Those of us who have seen and examined Arisaema in the wild k=now
that some species can be very variable, even in single populations.
Franchetianum/fargesii seems to be just such a case and the same situatio=n
could be found in species like for instance consanguineum, elephas or
lobatum. This variation even lead the Japanese botanist Jin Murata to
conclude that a lot of Japanese species previously described as separate,
were not as separate when looked at on a larger scale during population
studies. Although nodes within the variation range could be named, the
intermediate forms showed that the flower characters previously used for
discriminating between the species were not stable. He therefore created =the
"serratum-group" and renamed a considerable number of species to serratum=,
not because they were the same but because he failed to find stable
characters to distinguish them on. The choice he then made was to name th=em
all serratum until new characters were found to distinguish them on.

The friction comes when nurseries and collectors want to put a label on a
specific plant when that is taxonomically hard to justify. It is then up =to
the individual to accept the choice made by taxonomists. You could also
decide to leave the situation as it is and for nurseries that option is
quite understandable because they rather sell a plant under a separate na=me
then offer 2 plants as A. species "... " var. 1 & 2. The third option wou=ld
be to not bother at all about the name and simply enjoy the flowers!

I don't know if I have taken away your confusion but hopefully you get an
idea what the reasoning behind the move from fargesii to franchetianum
choice was.

Pascal



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Arisaema Enthusiast Group (AEG) Discussion List (and other hardy
Aroids) [mailto:ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL]Namens Marge Talt
Verzonden: woensdag 10 juli 2002 6:06
Aan: ARISAEMA-L at NIC.SURFNET.NL
Onderwerp: A. fargesii to A. franchetianum?


> From: George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>
> But then A. fargesii should have come up even though it's name has
been
> reduced to A. franchetianum. It can't be that fussy.
----------

Oh Ray...don't tell me I've got to re-learn that plant's name yet
again.  It was purchased as A. franchetianum and then research
indicated it was actually A. fargesii...so are these not two separate
species now?

Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
mtalt at hort.net
Editor:  Gardening in Shade
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