Chen Yi lists --LONG!

[Greg Ruckert]

Hey people, reality check time!  Here I venture into the lion's den.

>"That would be the nursery.  I did order about 10 different plants in
>quantities of three each to see for myself last fall and it was very
>obvious that these were wild collected.  Very old rhizomes and bulbs of

>From the first time that Chen Yi's site was posted anybody who thought about
it realised that these plants were largely from wild collection so we all
had our eyes open - or should have.

>on Alpine-L and i hear that one person went to Beijing and visited the
>nursery which was simply an apartment stacked with piles of plants.  There

Kaichen has well and truly outgrown the apartment - it is now used to house
guests who visit.  The plants are now housed in a warehouse.

>is no way to successfully cultivate the array of difficult genera
>represented especially the orchids and paris and some of the obscure plants
>such as Corrallidiscus which expert alpine growers can get a rosette the
>size of a quarter in 5-6 years from seed.  Many of the orchids are
>impossible to cultivate according to the botanists at the Kunming Botanical
>Garden so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that mature
>plants are not nursery grown.  I know of several nurseries who have ordered
>plants by the hundreds and multiply that by the world it just makes me ill.
>These nurseries who profess to never dig from the wild are fostering
>wild-digging at a far higher level than they could ever accomplish
>themselves by ordering plants through this broker. I appreciate your
>interest and concern."

I am aware of Nurseries who last year ordered as much as $US20,000 worth of
plants in individual orders.  No doubt many of you buy from these nurseries.

> I received her catalogue in which she urges customers not to purchase
>plants from nurseries, particularly from India, China and Japan, that
>purport to sell 'nursery-grown' plants such as Smilacina, Polygonatum,
>Paeonia mairiei, P. szechuanica, Dysosma, Paris, Trillium, Cypripedium,
>Bletilla, uncommon Pleione, Pepatica henryi, Fritillaria and a host of
>Arisaema and other plants.   I had purchased many plants from Kaichen
>nursery that promptly died.  I thought it was my own brown thumb at fault,
>but became suspicious when Ray mention his experiences, so I asked her if
>one of the nurseries she was referring to was indeed Kaichen, and she
>replied with the above.
>
>I remember a while back that a discussion was raised about Kaichen.  I
can't
>remember which list as I belong to too many, and I also can't remember the
>subject of the discussion except that it was either that customers were
>upset over the nomenclature or that they were unsure about the truthfulness
>of Kaichen's claim of not engaging in wild dug plants, or maybe both.
>
>In my mind there are so many replies floating around.  I remember a reply
to
>nomenclature stating that it was unfair for people to be upset with Chen Yi
>because she was working very hard against so many dead ends and
>uncertainties, and I also remember a reply stating that the plants were
>grown in various peasant landholdings and that profits were distributed
>among them.

That was my reply.  Certainly a proportion of the plants are nursery grown -
but it is a small percentage.  I stand by my comments about Nomenclature and
Chen Yi.  C'mon how many of the experts out there think they can accurately
name what is coming in from Kaichen?  I have sought feedback on the plants
that we have had flower in quarantine.  Response - zilch!!  Oh yes, except
for the people who bought these "cheap" plants and now desperately want to
be able to put names on them.  And now!!  My advice in every case has been
wait.  Give us time to study the material and study the plants and get it
right.  How many more misnamed plants do we want out there?  I would expect
her orchid nomenclature to be fairly spot on, her father is one of the
leading Orchid taxonomists in the world.

>Obviously, I'm confused.  So, I would just like to know what exactly is
>Kaichen's status as a 'correct' place' from which to purchase plants.  Does
>anyone know, or is it just another one of those buyers beware situations?

It depends on your situation.  As I tried to say in last year's discussion,
if you are a person seriously interested in getting these rare plants into
cultivation - bring in 10 of each so that you have a chance of producing
seed and guaranteeing that the species can be multiplied.  Otherwise leave
them alone.  It is the demand that makes them available.  What is the point
of buying 1, 2 or 3 plants.  Well I suppose that you might possess them for
a short time.  But so what?

>Recently I spoke with someone (a gardener, not a nurseryperson) who had
>ordered some cypripediums from Chen Yi/Kaichen; apparently Chen Yi was
>deliberately mislabelling these CITES-protected species in order to avoid
>CITES regulations.  The plants were confiscated at the point of entry (so
>some APIS inspectors DO know their stuff! :-) ), and the person in
>question was visited by Federal agents and subjected to considerable
>unpleasantness (including the threat of a large fine, though I do not know
>whether this was actually levied in the end). The person who told me this
>tale - and they may identify themselves if they choose, but I won't - had
>heard a similar tale from another buyer.  In both cases the agents wanted
>to see e-mail records (which the person I spoke with had been advised, by
>Chen Yi, to delete).
>
>Maybe it's time to stop playing "Let's pretend".

Absolutely.  I have no sympathy for that person whatsoever.  If you get
involved in illegal activities and you get caught then bad luck - go
straight to prison!!  What are we playing at here.  The whole purpose of
CITES is to allow botanical institutions to exchange material.  Not for
people who want to be able to say, "Hey look what I've got".  The laws are
in place to stop these very practices.  Some people just don't make very
good smugglers.

>I talked to a nursery man in another part of Michigan who told me about
>another importer [someone he knew and someone from whom I'd gotten some
>excellent Arisaema in 1997] who, in 1998 ordered orchids from a source in
>China [I do not know if it was Chen Yi].  The importer, according to what
my
>contact was told, didn't insure them for enough [guess the reason -- import
>taxes, perhaps?], and they all arrived dead or near dead.  Financial
disaster
>for the importer, as title passes to purchaser at place of nursery in
China.

Maybe this is another importer who will not contribute to this in the
future - a good learning exercise for them.

>I think Ray Stilwell is right.  We need to buy from people whose reputation
is
>valuable enough to them that they are not passing off garbage at high
prices.

>I bought some Arisaema from the same fellow I'd gotten such good plants
from
>in 1997, and it turns out that this year they are Chen Yi --- I was not
>familiar with the website when I ordered them but recognise the color laser
>printed sheets I was sent as being from the website. The prices were way
out
>of line, and the plants and tubers are not quality, and WHAT A WASTE of
MONEY.
>Never again!

Great, hopefully another one out of business.

>Thank goodness I have some really excellent material coming from Ellen
Hornig,
>Tony Avent,   Dan Hinckley, Arrowhead Alpine [Bob Stewart] who has promised
me
>some A. sikokianum grown by Fred Case [who with his late wife Roberta wrote
>the wonderful Trillium book [TimberPress] last year.

Hmm, I wonder who is importing from Kaichen?

Now for my bit.  I believe that there is a positive side to Chen Yi's work.
They are responsible for finding many new species.  They are doing work that
the Botanical Institutions do not have the capital to do.  What we do
however is our responsibility.  Unless we work properly with this material
then we should leave it alone.  Rob's pictures of Kaichen material in
quarantine are testament to what can be achieved.  None of the plants
discussed above would have gone through the treatment that these have
suffered yet they are flourishing.  Only one species did not survive to
planting stage.  These tubers have been imported in big enough numbers that
seed will hopefully be generated next season.  Then we will have done our
job.  More tubers of these species will not "NEED" to be dug from the wild.

One of the problems these days is people have to possess and they prefer to
do it for free or as close to it as possible.  People should be prepared to
wear some responsibility.  If you really care about a group of plants don't
just have to possess - support their future.  Support research, support
exploration.  But don't cry foul if you know what you are doing is suspect
and you get burned.  I was a little bit disappointed to see people who had
apologised that they couldn't afford to support the 1998 expedition to the
extent of $US100 then order this amount of material from Kaichen.  Says
something to me!!

Greg Ruckert
Australian Areae Collection
http://www.ezi-learn.com.au/areae/default.html