[Trillium-l] difference between chloropetalum and kurabayashii

[Kalle Kristensen]

Russ, DNA is not the easiest way for an amateur Trillium grower like me 
Scent; perhaps, I always use scent when I decide Trillium albidum. I give you right to the size of the leaves can't  be used to determine what species it is, leaf size varies due to weather, growing conditions, fertilizer ect. This spring, many of my Trillium got a thick stems and large leaves, perhaps because of the unusual long, cold winter and late spring.
I have read that many in the United States differs Trillium as chloropetalum and kurabayashii by geography, which I can't use here in Denmark.
Russ, I am very sure that Trillium I sent the picture of is Trillium kurabayashii, but find it hard to see the difference between the stamen by it and the other kurabayashii and chloropetalum as I have.
I give you right, we do not always have what we think we have. Many Trillium, as are sold on plant marked and nurseries come from seeds and other is coming as self sowing seedplants in our gardens. But also old names can confuse for example, I know that for many many years ago, Trillium was sold in England as "sessile Californicum Rubrum” I have read that it should be Trillium chloropetalum v. giganteum or Trillium kurabayashii. I have also seen many Trillium named as Trillium sessile and it was everything from cuneatum, chloropetalum, kurabayashii and albidum or cross between them all. 



Kindly

Karl Kristensen




From: The Grahams 
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 12:34 AM
To: Trillium Enthusiast Discussion List (and other Woodland plants) 
Subject: Re: [Trillium-l] difference between chloropetalum and kurabayashii


On May 8, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Kalle Kristensen wrote:


  How do I see the difference between chloropetalum and kurabayashii? I have read in several books how I do, but I am still in doubt.
  The picture should be of Trillium kurabayashii



First, to Marcia's response/question... is anyone growing western Trillium sessiles along with eastern species unable to distinguish them?  MY belief is that the mottling is NOT the same and generally the stature of the plants is distinguishable as well. My point would be is that if you have both it will be obvious, which is which. BUT, not certain others will agree.

The challenge, as indicated by recent posts is that many of the Trilliums we grow are not what we "thought" they were, which leads to my attempt to respond to Karl's question.

There are folks who are convinced that one or more of the published keys work for the western sessile Trilliums. However, I have more than one example of situations where the keys and the plants in natIve populations have not been reconcilable... Generally the folks that are comfortable with the results they get from the keys have not been confronted with sizable populations OR more than a few specimens. The situation only gets more confusing when dealing with garden plants of unknown origin...

I have been unable to find many folks that have a lot of conviction about their abilities to confidently and consistently ID the Western species in practice, especially with actual specimens from more than one location. Fragrance can play a role but the nose of the assessor and the age of the flowers are both huge variables, to say nothing of temperatures and air moisture levels. (It is tough to make any fragrance evaluation in deep shade on a cold morning in pouring rain as just one example.)

The idea that one can "SEE" the differences based on leaf size, length, width or "shape" has not held up in any convincing way from my perspective.

So Karl, I would "guess" the plant you sent an image of is T. kurabayashii. I would be more, or less, confident if i could see the entire flower, the entire plant, and how the anthers dehisce pollen, the pollen color for sure, the relative height of the anthers to the stigma and the shape of the stigma and smell the flower myself on a warm  but not hot day.While I am not fully certain it is of any ID use, the size, shape and color of the fruit might sway my ultimate designation.

Another approach is for me to suggest what I would expect to see different about your image to convince me the plant might be chloropetalum. The pollen would not be yellow, the petals would be wider, the relative width of the petals to the length would be closer, the stamens would be noticeably longer than the stigma (in kurabayashii they are nearly the same length).

One of my concerns is that if the differences are more refined than what I have outlined, not readily consistent or less obvious how can the plants be truly considered distinct species.

Hopefully you will receive more definitive and helpful information than what I have provided. PLEASE share when you do figure things out.

Kindly,
Russ




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